Gregor Gysi und Michael Roth streiten über Entlastungen für Bürger und Russland-Sanktionen
Welcome, dear viewers, to the top-level discussion about the war in Ukraine and its severe effects on us Still demonstrating in Leipzig on Monday and are already sitting here with us. Have a nice day and the SPD politician
Roth, who is chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the German Bundestag and has warned the Federal Government to support Ukraine with more arms deliveries since the beginning of the terrible war of aggression, a warm welcome too thank you for the invitation yes Mr. Gisi we have prepared a few pictures of how you demonstrated on Monday evening in Leipzig you can see them on the stage according to your party there were 4000 people there you could explain to us very briefly what you are up against there on Monday evening Leipzig specifically demons there are increasing fears among the population and political parties are called upon to take this seriously and react to it there is deep uncertainty as to how the insolvency will continue how the price increases for energy will continue soon with the price and the rents for groceries are also rising again and I am firmly convinced that it is precisely the task of the left to democratically organize and accompany such a protest so that not all or more and more of the right-wing extremists follow the consequences for the AFD that was yes also the argument she tried to get in with it but there was no chance that was also on site they distanced themselves I want to bring Mr Brodt into play for a moment, who tweeted something about this demo on Monday we’ll take a look at it I quote today want to abuse the legacy of the Monday demonstrations for real democracy and putin friends to spread your lie that everything will be affordable and comfortable again if we just finally drop the Ukraine he
Gysi you feel addressed to me not to do what the day said again I'm a Putin friend I've never met by the way in contrast to others and i don't want us to let the ukraine down i even went there and not like the others with a piecemeal visit but several nights and days and looked at the damage that's not the point anyway you have to social fears seriously and of course we have to know that we need peace in Europe and I am convinced that without a compromise we will not get it we can actually have a lasting war that lasts for years where there is a balance of power, so to speak, but no one can do that Being a solution we have to find a solution and of course Ukraine has an S, which is completely undisputed for me The right to self-defense was perhaps a bit exaggerated semantically not at all I am with normal people and of course they are very worried because those with an average income also see problems still having the energy to pay the bills tweeted here about the demonstrators who despise democracy and I Despite all personal respect, I agree with
Gysi that we both condemn Russia's war of aggression against Ukraine, which violates international law, I do not agree with him on all other points and I certainly see a certain similarity in his argumentation with the argumentation of people who actually Keeping Putin in mind as a very nice nice person and blame only one example that's a tough accusation that's a tough, justified accusation, for example, I heard that
Gysi also said on Monday at a Monday demonstration Actually, NATO was to blame for everything, everyone, NATO did everything wrong in dealing with Russia.
I think this is very bad Putin propaganda, because once again the impression is given that Russia and Putin alone are not responsible for this terrible war the prerequisites for this war being the provocations of NATO which would not have accepted the sphere of influence of Russia and thus of course the right of sovereignty and the right to freedom of the Eastern European countries is punished with lies and I think that is a serious mistake and a serious omission I just didn't have that at all said he quotes me wrong of course I said one sentence and it said that I know that the EU and NATO have done almost everything wrong with regard to Ukraine and Russia that can be done wrong I will give him an example and then I have I said but there wasn't a single mistake in the practice Russia's fall on Ukraine is right and that's why we have to be absolutely successful for the people because I know that there are also many who develop a bit of understanding for it and I say there is no justification for the war even though mistakes were made, I'll admit it Example Russia wanted to make a customs agreement with Ukraine and said but only on condition that you do not make an agreement with the EU, the EU said we would make an agreement with you but only on the condition that you could not make an agreement with Russia according to God why you don't agree on maybe making a bridge between the EU and Russia out of the Ukraine it's all too late now but there were such opportunities back then I just want to say I'd like to always be properly quoted yes and that's why it sounds different than what he says noticed me or what he was told why grin well I grin because it's again a narrative puti ns served and again it's about not respecting the free decision of a free country with an automatically elected government.
Back then, people took to the streets because the then President of Ukraine bowed to Putin and then the Association Agreement with the EU no longer wanted to sign then the revolution broke out the Orange Revolution of Milan and I think that this revolution not only deserves respect but was also a clear appeal we want to be part of this European community of values and I think this decision deserves respect and they have We didn't make this decision, we didn't make it in Germany or in Brussels, it was the people in the Ukraine who made it, of course, it came from within, of course, but also a bit from outside, and the condition wasn't a relationship with Russia, which I wouldn't have done in such an association agreement I found that yes, not wrong either, by the way, his deselection did not work in terms of constitutional law, that was only possible because 75% of the deputies fended him off, which with a 72 percent I mean that is not important, he then left the apartment and of course I also respect the regime, that’s why I was Yes, there too and I also respect the people's will for democracy and freedom, nevertheless we have a war and still we need a solution and it doesn't help to just keep saying we love arms diplomatic solution is no longer thought of at all the only one there I mean I think that's just too abstruse, Erdogan is the President of Turkey, why can't Scholz be the mediator to find a solution as quickly as possible and by the way I'm not using Putin's arguments at all, I'm just saying that before many Mistakes have been made because it is only my immediate neighbor of Russia and I am allowed But remember the Cuban Missile Crisis when the Soviet Union wanted to station missiles in Cuba, Kennedy said that it would lead to the third world war if he didn't turn the ships around, and fortunately he turned things around, then they found compromises, so you can totally do it Yes, don't ignore Russia's security interests either, but justify them so that I won't be misunderstood, everyone, not the war, the fire, mistakes have been made is important and if we want to have a peace order in the future, we must also think about ourselves and say what can we do differently make sure that such a war in Europe never comes again it has become clear Mr.
rothschotet still in your head probably because the references to mistakes America made in the past in a little tired well in 2008 there was a clear rejection of NATO that Ukraine or Georgia of NATO join the then Chancellor Merkel and the then French President shied away from this desire for accession, hell again, holy water, there was a clear demarcation and what she says reminds me again very strongly of what I keep hearing that we interfered too much in Eastern Europe and that is clear to me Contradiction to the legitimate right to freedom of people and I stand up for these interests and in the end the Ukrainians decide exclusively and alone and if you want a diplomatic solution then you need at least two not only the Ukraine and Ukrainians but above all the Dictator Putin We'll talk about mediation attempts and arms deliveries right away Erdogan and not Scholz not feasible I can explain that to you one dictator helps the other authoritarian ruler but one dictator is a member of NATO and on the other hand there was a tactical interest from Putin here for once a concession First and foremost he wants to get the countries of Africa and other developing countries on his side and he no longer wanted to deal with the accusation that he is responsible for hunger in the world because after all he blocked the grain delivery and that was it the reason why he gave in, he is cynically concerned with his own power, with his own sphere of influence and not with the interests of the developing countries, of course that is good and I also think it is good that the UN Secretary General is making good efforts, but they are very, very small Triple steps the big solution that we all want, namely peace, which will only be achievable if Ukraine, from a position of strength, can force Putin to sit down again at the negotiating table.
So far, there has only been one demand that Putin has raised and I see it the surrender of Ukraine is still in the room and neither we nor the Ukrainians can do that allow me to say something about that, I think the sentence that Ukraine should capitulate unconditionally is completely wrong because Ukraine has a right to self-defense and it has to decide whether and what compromises you enter by moving Russia off the map, not by me and now I come to the second, but the statement by the Foreign Minister does not work either, she said the war is only over when the last Russian soldier has left Ukrainian territory, we are not entitled to it if the Ukrainian leadership finds any kind of compromise with Russia, regardless of whether whether we like it or not and as a result the weapons stop firing we have to consider this compromise, I mean, I am a staunch opponent of this war, but I would like it to stop once in a while and for that you need some kind of solution, as that is not easy to dispute I don't, but you need more and more diplomatic for that Solutions should deduct that he doesn't do that they also know No and we want to solve now from years Mr. red's solution is obviously that the federal government more support for the Ukraine in the form of weapons I give everything militarily can beat Russia forget it okay, I admit one thing, my argument to citizens and it's very difficult to convey, that's why I'm sitting here tonight to explain that, my position has to be well justified because it's difficult to acknowledge that if you don't deal with the topic every day More weapons will lead to a faster peace I don't believe Mr.
Putin at all, but I am convinced that if he himself feels and knows he can no longer win this war because Ukraine can assert itself, then he will see a chance for himself again at the negotiating table so if we leave Ukraine alone now if we don't poli them financially table and militarily support, then there will be a dictated peace and it may well be that you and others would agree if Ukraine gave up 20 or 25 percent of its territory to Mr.
Gysi a very specific question: what would you have done differently in the past six months?
I would definitely have tried to mediate in constant talks with both the Russian and the Ukrainian side to determine whether there are any chances of an agreement, I know Of course, I don’t want to make calls with them more often, but I stopped and then Erdogan took over the whole thing. I was glad that macron and Scholz did it then you know militarily is Russia ni not to fight unless we make the third world war then we can't afford it of course I'll say it again the Ukraine has a right to self-defense but you have to if you win the wars quickly how can I win how do you know that because then this one has to man