Scotland ‘will find another way to independence’, says Sturgeon after Supreme Court defeat
the last moment to highlight
Scotland's stark division,
independence supporters and a smaller number of opponents holding rival flags and banners outside the scottish parliament, which took a major blow today nicholas
sturgeon had set the dates for next october, but this morning the referendum had finished the scottish parliament was planning without the consent of westminster it
will not happen it would not have been legal the judgment of the high
court of the uk so this ruling confirms that the notion of the uk as a voluntary association of nations , if it was once a reality, it is no longer a reality the scottish parliament does not have the power to legislate for a referendum on scottish
independence the high
court spelled it out the powers are in westminster and the current holder of number 10 seems have no intention of handing them over at least be honest and confirm that the very idea of the UK is a voluntary Union of Nations is now dead and buried well Mr.
Seeker let me begin by saying that we respect the clear and final decision of the
Court on a kingdom and what I would say to the Honorable gentleman that first thing I look forward to seeing as well to the
Scotland moderator tomorrow and I think the people of
Scotland want us to work to address the major challenges we collectively face, whether it is the economy supporting the NHS or supporting the Ukraine ahead of the 2014
independence referendum David Cameron's government transferred The powers to the Scottish Parliament to hold a Plan A vote were again the same, but it is getting a red light from the UK government despite a pro-
independence majority at Holyrood going ahead regardless of Plan B of Nicholas
Sturgeon is now deemed not legal, so what is plan C?
Sturgeon won't give up, she
will. she tried
another way and said that she
will treat the next general election as if it were an
independence referendum now that her opponents have already said so. They're not doing that, and by almost everyone's admission, it's a far cry from the internationally recognized referendum that was held in 2014. Nicholas
Sturgeon wanted to celebrate again. This minister, he has always said that a referendum must be legal and legitimate. with the Scottish people and accept that the de facto referendum that you were proposing would not be lawful because the High
Court has ruled on legality and it would not be legitimate because the other party does not consent eh no but if you have heard everything I have said , a referendum is my preferred option for all the reasons I have given but if a referendum is blocked there has to be
another way for the Scottish people to have their say work as it
says go ahead absolutely
Scotland has its right choose but
scotland don't want a referendum right now
scotland don't support
independence right now but they don't support school status either people want change across the country and work has to be that change and i think
will lead the way in helping to elect the UK labor government.
You just told me what the people of
Scotland want and the best solution is to ask them, look, you've seen it. In poll after poll, you've seen that, election after election, what could voters do with a general election coming to a de facto referendum if you could just raise your hand clearly and kindly? years ago we sought change among those who voted no in 2014 a key group SMP is trying to win over how social worker Anne de Paisley feels today uh could we get an appointment at the hospital there for almost 10 months she has been a person who suffers with cancer in the past and have problems the problems that occur could not get a hospital appointment people are interested in eating stay alive keep warm have insulated houses so they can afford to spend the winter that should be a sturgeo collar The priority of n not a referendum John from Hamilton in red was once against
Independence and now it is even more certain that things have changed at best.
The UK government tends to shy away from the Brexit vote. I mean Scott. Europe was very much, you know, an integral part of
Scotland, and vice versa of Europe. Over time, we'll see if the voters' priorities are the same as those of Nicholas's
sturgeons. It is a de facto referendum and a necessary step or a misstep The answer could determine the next Scottish election and the political future of Nicholas
Sturgeon Now for Channel 4 News Made after the
Court decision We asked a representative sample of national level 1,060 voters in
Scotland 412 of whom voted for the SMP at the last general election, would they vote for the SMP at the next general election if a win for them could lead
Scotland to leave the UK? 50 voted yes, 33 voted no, 51 voted yes and 33 voted no when asked if their vote should be used as a mandate to negotiate
independence, but when asked what is most important to them, a quarter said the Scottish
independence and just over 60 mentioned the Scottish economy and public services.
Well, now I'm joined by the leaders of the Scottish Conservative and Labor parties, Douglas Ross and Anasawa, but first let's talk to the Scottish Government's Constitutional Secretary, Angus Robertson Anderson, what do you think the Scottish people have said they have not? Today there have been four consecutive games. The first ministers are now the High
Court saying no to a referendum
will you ever take no for this no we won't because we have a mandate and that mandate came from the Scottish people in the Scottish parliamentary elections last year not only did the SNP and indeed the greens did win the election in that term but we actually have the largest majority in the Scottish Parliament so and opinion polls are always very interesting whether the news is good or less good, but what really matters are the elections and the results of the elections, and we were elected to hold a referendum during the first half of this parliamentary term and we have tried to do it in the same way that it happened in 2014, which is The UK government, the Scottish government acknowledge that a democratic decision was made allowing a referendum to take place and that we can unfortunately go ahead with what we are What we are facing is the denial of democracy by the other. political parties who lost the election and not giving people in school we lost the last referendum but you love to keep talking about
independence but it distracts from your records on other issues here in government your schools are lagging behind england you have the wait highest NHS times now on record you don't want to talk about you want to talk about
independence if people were so unhappy with the way
Scotland is going Verned then we wouldn't have won eight or eight elections in a row we negotiate let's do it in this scenario no, you're talking about the last referendum and you're right, we didn't win a majority in the last referendum and what happened after that is we had a referendum on brexit and
Scotland was taken out of the European Union against our wishes, we had elections Last year in
Scotland this was the biggest issue on the campaign trail and we got a record majority elected to the Scottish Parliament Cease, I know it is hard for the losing parties to hear these facts, but in a normal democracy, the government does what the people have instructed their msps or MPS, we have a mandate, we should go ahead and not face the denial of democracy . of the UK parties do you regret taking this to the
Court because there was a bet you really lost wasn't it?
I don't regret taking it to the
Court because now we have Clarita we have Clarity that there is not a route using the UK um uh uh the UK government route to get a section 30 order we have clarity that now we don't we can go ahead with the referendum voted in the Scottish Parliament and unfortunately that leaves us no choice but to move on to the next Democratic Option we have which is the next general election but the question for the other political parties is how many elections does he have to win the SNP how many times do people have to return a majority to the Scottish Parliament for people to really have a say whether we are living in a democracy whether we are living in a voluntary union because of today's specialty in the next election of the Scottish indices the majority of Scottish qualifications are curtains you can't have a referendum you can't demand
independence again can you that's all? well what normally happens is people decide that and people have decided we should have a referendum and we should be able to choose if you don't get a majority of the Scottish votes forgive me someone has been involved and now eight straight SNP wins .
I am not going to accept the premise in all humility. You can't be sure of any outcome in an election, but you've never gone over 50 percent, it really isn't. true that the majority has not been returned to the scottish parliament or in fact uh or when the votes have been counted people have not cast their votes for
independence what should we all agree on as democrats? big unresolved question like when we have a government here elected with a mandate to hold a referendum that other political parties have to respect, especially those who lost the election and the last one, like the last election in
Scotland, was lost by the Conservatives and the labor party opposed a referendum.
You have made that point repeatedly. I want to come back to my point about recording your government here because of our poll today. taken after that
Court ruling a large majority of people we surveyed want it to focus on the economy and public services not
independence well people can have a number of thoughts at the same time it's completely possible to continue with all the important issues of the day and ensure the best constitutional outcome for the country one does not depend on the other what is important is that in a democracy we have the choice while dealing with all the other issues of the day I know it is very uncomfortable For the other political parties, they are opposed to the referendum and they lost.
We were in favor of the referendum and we won, and as long as we have aspirations to truly live in a democracy, we must respect the opinions of the people and, incidentally, for the benefit of the spectators. in other parts of the uk this is quite important until today we have been working under the illusion that the uk is a voluntary union today we found out that it is not a ry union voluntary union let me say that directly to the Tory leader here Angus Robinson many thanks douglas ross now um well let's get to that point this is no longer a voluntary union it's absolutely fine and the record of that is the 2014 referendum where the people of
scotland could have opted to leave the uk but they decided for a significant majority to remain part of the UK not to support Angus as separation plans but I have to pick up Angus as the last Scottish Parliament election is the main one The problem with Scottish
independence was not you can laugh Angus but Nicholas
Sturgeon told us that it would not be about
independence, it would be about covid and covert recovery.
Sturgeon even told voters to give him their support and it would not be counted as a vote. for
Independence so Angus is now rewriting history seeing that it is but our poll showed after the
Court ruling that a majority would vote SMP in the next general election to give them a mandate for
independence you can't ignore that well i think you are also saying that if i heard you correctly the s p voters in the last elections would not all continue to support the SMP if it meant simply voting for
independence referendum and I think the poll is absolutely spot on and the question that I raised with Angus in the Scottish Parliament today is that surely our priorities should be dealing with the cost of living crisis the global issues affecting us the Health Service here in
Scotland our education system and we are talking about the night before teachers in
Scotland first strive was that you can do both what four prime ministers in a row you've been told no to a referendum the more you do that the more you're acting like a Recruit Sergeant for
Independence well absolutely not because the groups haven't changed significantly in the rush of nationalists in the states across that split again the problems it creates for families and communities for companies for investments we know what that was like in 2014. it's a
defeat no it's absolutely divisive this debate separated and divided families and companies and communities we don't need that when we should be focusing on coming together working together I want the Scottish government and UK government to work together to deliver for the people of
Scotland Well Angus you know that very well eight years ago there was avery clear decision, it was a gold standard according to the surgeon Nicholas. to have a referendum on the future of
Scotland's place within the UK and the people of
Scotland decided to remain part of the UK and the SMP told us at the time that they would respect the vote and have no doubts about how people can have a referendum I suppose you wouldn't expect me, as a pro-UK politician, someone who believes in
Scotland's place in the UK, to tell you how to separate our country.
Try the same way. You wouldn't expect it to outline a roadmap for
Scotland to remain part of the Union, but remember that only eight years ago we had to be. Let's put that aside and now focus on the really important issues affecting individual volunteers across the country, well let me now turn to the leader of Anna Sawa Labor here in
Scotland, a labor has made it clear that it
will not accept Indy, the second
independence referendum, you know, different from the conservatives. Are you okay? Look, the difference is that I don't think there is. I know that there is no majority in favor of a referendum in the course of the next year.
There is no majority in the field of
independence, but there is no majority in favor of the state either. It's great, there is a majority, no. there is not a majority in favor of change in this entire country and i can actually recognize what that means, although i
will tell you directly what it means is that i can understand why people in this country get frustrated and angry with a lying scam government morally bankrupt financially illiterate what Angus wants to belong to is anger is only in Edinburgh or Glasgow anger in Liverpool Birmingham Manchester car diff and we have to prove that change is possible and that is by removing government from history and electing a Labor government that
will work in the interest of
Scotland and the UK, that is actually the biggest thing Angus Roberts and the SMP fear and that is actually why they have it's this strategy around the general election because they have no answer to this big thing that the bogeyman of the Tory party has and I agree I agree with Angus about everything that is wrong with this Conservative government but that is that they are not representing the UK and that's why we need change ok you also agree that circumstances have changed since the last
independence referendum because the Conservatives took the UK including
Scotland out of the EU look I don't support That we left the European Union which was a catastrophic decision and on that I'm sure Angus and I would agree but that doesn't mean we replace Tory chaos with SMP chaos
Independence doesn't mitigate Brexit it multiplies the impact of brexit most of our trade with the rest of the world pales in comparison to the trade we do with the rest of the UK all those challenges i bet if angus robertson the platform they set out in the economic paper if they were to stay on that platform in 2014 they say we would have a separate currency and leave sterling and then have a trading border between
scotland and england i don't think they would have been brave enough to produce that in 24. as i said to douglas, which is if you're that confident if your union argument allows them to have their referendum and you wouldn't be denying them democracy but kathy would be wrong to just suggest referendums don't have no consequence look at the brexit referendum it had consequences for our country look at the
independence referendum yes the result might not have gone in favor of angus but it had consequences for our country it would divide people across the country.
He took the focus off the big issues right now and I hate to break it to Angus. See if you voted yes or no, if you support
independence or not. Your energy bills keep increasing. and he's worried about his mortgage he's still languishing on an NHS waiting list because his government isn't focusing on that ok one in seven Scots on the NHS Angus waiting list doesn't want to talk about what he'd rather talk Banderas Okay, but a lot of your voters, the labor voters, want a referendum, well, look, I'm appealing to the people. I am appealing to people across the country to say that we may ultimately disagree on the ultimate fate of
I don't support.
Independence I don't support a referendum Ultimately this again is the Final Destination, but the vast majority of us in
Scotland across the UK agree that we need to get rid of history. F or change we're going to make thank you all so much for joining us now and apologies if you heard any offensive language from the crowd behind us during that discussion